CLEAR DESK PODCAST INTERVIEW – SEASON ONE
My very first Podcast interview was with the brilliant Ingrid Fernandez from Dec + Dash Legal Consulting. I’m thrilled to be able to share our chat with you below.
Ingrid, welcome, thank you so much for being here, I’m so thrilled that you are on the Clear Desk Podcast today, can you please introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about your business.
Thank you, thank you so much for having me I’m so happy to chat with you always let alone on your Podcast, so I’m Ingrid, I founded Dec and Dash Legal Consulting about two and a half years ago now and what I do is I help small business owners and freelancers with just the legal bits of their business so terms and conditions, contracts, privacy documents just so that people can get on and so much like what you do Natalia, people can get on with doing the stuff they love and that they’re good at without worrying about whether they are legally protected or whether they are doing the right thing, so that’s my jam!
Absolutely so it’s people who are, like you say, they are just starting out or just about to start out mainly, and they want to know what they need to have, just in order to get things moving, and then a lot of my clients are also people who might have, like a lot of us do, we kind fall into running our business. You don’t necessarily plan to be running this business, you just start the doing, and so a couple of years in they start thinking “ok I want that contract, I know how I work now, I want to protect what I do, what do I need to have in place?” so I generally work with people who are about to start their business or just started, all the way through to the first couple of years in because that’s where I can get them what they need and get them on the right track and just protecting what they do in the best way.
Amazing, so you said you started your business about two and a half years ago, and as you know my Podcast is all about outsourcing, so can you tell us a little bit about your experience of outsourcing – how you feel about it, what brought you to it, your experience of it, all of those things.
Definitely, so when I first started my business I, too be honest, was really slow to outsource anything, just because I think for me I’m not someone who ever planned to run a business, I didn’t have that in my – it wasn’t something I aspired to do, it just kind of came together when I was on maternity leave and so in my mind what a business owner looked like was someone who just did all the things, that was just the model in my head, and so that’s what I was doing and it was hard, I had two children under three at the time and they were both at home and I was working around them and too be honest I look back now and I can’t really – a lot of it is quite blurred!
Those crazy days, we do it thought don’t we, particularly when we start.
Yeh and I’m not at all saying that you need to outsource from the beginning, I don’t think that at all but for me I felt like “I just need to do all the things and then everything will be ok, and I’ll know how everything works” and you have to be at a certain point to be able to bring someone in and I just had all of these ideas of what it should look like and then I think you and I met in person at, I think a Mama Tribe event.
Yes it was, in London, I remember.
Yes that’s right and I obviously me being me, I’m an online stalker in the very liberal sense I’m an online stalker but I had found you on Instagram and I had been following you and I thought “wow, this is just someone – the way you spoke about helping people in their business, resonated so much with me so I was like “I just want to meet this person, and see if we have that click” and I think once we did click I was like “ok, great cool I’m done, this person, I need!” so it was very much, I think you were my first, between you and Amanda you were my first, Amanda who is the brilliant branding wizard, that we all know and love, so the two of you were my first experiences of outsourcing, so she helped me very much with getting my brand sorted out because I didn’t know anything about that and working with you just really helped me step back from being in and doing the technical work of my business and looking at you – because I remember we had one of our early calls and you said “ok, what system do you have to do that?” and I was like “system…?” so I know what that word means, I don’t know how that applies to my business necessarily, so it was good in that it made me start thinking of my business as something separate to just me grinding, so I found having you on board just to, and I would always find this after our calls – and if I didn’t make it clear, we started working together in that VA relationship so you would just help me take all that noise out of my head and turn it into a to-do list and there were things you would do, there were things I would do with the schedule so all the things that seemed really straight forward in my mind but they would just all be locked in my brain for days and not doing anything, so I think for me having that ability of someone to see I guess the trees, it was all just trees and just noise, and you could see what I was trying to do but could break it up and say “ok, these are the things that need to happen at this point, we can then progress to this thing” that I just wasn’t able to do that in my business at that time because so much of ‘doing the things’ and then over time we worked together so that was probably, over a year?
Then I think it was a few months ago that I realised, I need more in terms of the outsourcing and support and since then I relied very heavily on my accountant, the poor woman, she again is just brilliant with all the number things, they just know things in a way that I couldn’t, so she takes care of that world for me, and I’ve had Amanda again, poor Amanda, working on the website and building that for me and then your support as well as we’ve moved on, just to be able to build my business in a way that I couldn’t see for myself, I couldn’t have done, I definitely couldn’t have done it only own because I’m so busy in the ‘doing’ I can’t always see what I’m trying to build and see what I’m trying to take on.
It’s so interesting isn’t it, because I think as business owners, when we start out we have this kind of image, well I know I did, of what entrepreneurship is, I had this kind of Alan Sugar thing in my head or like the Richard Branson story, and also this idea that suddenly I needed to be a bookkeeper, a content creator, an accountant, visible, you know all of the things, yet I don’t know where we get that idea from because when we worked in the corporate world, well I worked in education but you know in a big company – that’s why you have people taking on all of those roles, that’s why you have a business manager, a secretary and such and such assistant. It’s just interesting isn’t it? You mentioned that you wanted to find that click, you said that click with the people that you work with, can you talk about that a little bit more, I mean you don’t need to blow smoke up my arse or anything but I just mean in general, like, just to try and get that across to people because so often I say to VA’s and to business owners, give yourselves three months of working together to see if it works for both of you and I think you summed that up really nicely when you said ‘that click’.
Yes, totally, so I think for me, again I’m similar to I had only those very male models of that entrepreneurship and what that would look like and what I didn’t have is what it would feel like to bring someone into my business what that should feel like for me and I think what I struggled with a little bit before I met you and before I stepped into you know embracing outsourcing, was that I thought it needed to be, and look for some people it can be be-
Yeh absolutely, but that’s the point that’s what it works for the individual, for the right person.
Yeh so for me, I know for some people it can be a very formal and structured relationship and that can work for them and their business and that’s wonderful and I think like you say, it has to work for the person, but for me because I think of the way I work with people and even when I worked with corporate, I feel really strong relationships with the people I worked with and of course there was a boundary of work and life but we were like friends and we did talk about when we were having rough weeks and even in a work context when things weren’t going great or we were a bit stuck and so for me I thought I’m not really comfortable bringing someone into the business where I have to be a very formal and closed and you know, everything is regimented in my relationship with them, just that wouldn’t have worked for me so I think the click that I was looking for with you and this is what I found with the other people I have outsourced with is that we can just have a chat as well so we can be really productive, we can talk about the work things, we get all the things done professionally but then we can also have that chat and we can understand, especially for you and I, we are both Mum’s, we both have children who are a similar age, so we can have you know a five minute chat about that and just knowing, because that helps me to know where you are in your world because I want to know the people that I work with because for me transactional purely, it’s very much our business are supporting each others because I couldn’t do what I do without the people that I outsource to, my business would not work in the way that it does now and the way I want it to going forward so I want that relationship, to be a relationship, it’s not a transaction to me so the click I was looking for was with someone that yes I respect professionally and I found that from what you posted and shared online so I knew that you had the professional skills but then I wanted to know, can we can have a little laugh now and then.
And we do!
Oh gosh we definitely do! And I think that for me means that when we do have a chat or when I send you an email saying “I couldn’t get this done” I know that will be received in the view of business and as a Mum who has two young children, when are are recording this in the middle of a pandemic and we are all just doing our best and I think bringing that to my working relationships and being able to have that in my interactions with you and people I outsource with, makes outsourcing really positive for me, I don’t see any negativity to it, it’s building me up, it’s building my business and I feel supported, and that I think it is really priceless in that relationship.
It’s just so wonderful to hear you talk about it because obviously we work together and I support you so we do talk a lot but when you step back and you hear the impact of it, it’s really quite powerful. I speak to a lot of business owners who kind of, they’re at the point where they know they want to outsource, or they feel they need to outsource but finding that click or that support can feel quite overwhelming and I absolutely understand that, if you’re not kind of in a business network or if you’re quite quiet online perhaps, or you’re quite shy, it can be quite difficult to approach people, but I feel like knowing you and knowing your business, you’ve grown the kind of capacity with outsourcing, your business has grown, hasn’t it, because you’ve been I know particularly busy in your own business and that can only be a positive thing.
Have you had any kind of those, big lightbulb ‘AH-HA!’ moments with outsourcing, has there been anything that’s like “Oh yes! Now I can see how that’s going to work!” or something that you’ve always wanted to do that perhaps if you didn’t have that freelance team around you, you wouldn’t be able to do.
Oh my goodness, where do I start! I’ve had so many, I think, so one of the projects we’re working on at the moment is in relation to my website and taking some digital products live and I think for me, because the ‘tech side’ of things the way things work tech wise is another one of my weaknesses and I have felt so much like “Oh I can’t do that particular thing” because I’m not so good with the tech side and having someone who can go “well, we’ll just sort out the tech, we’ll just do it” just having someone to say that, and I think it’s almost that reminder, and I say this to people all the time, so it’s good when people can say it back to me, we can do really hard things – you know we’re running successful businesses, we can do really, really hard things but I think sometimes when we’re within our business, and we’re so busy just trying to get, you know if you have clients and you are a service based business, trying to do all that client work that any new thing that there is, even if it will grow the business, it’s a new thing and there’s a resistance to “well I can’t learn that new thing, I don’t have time”, “I don’t have capacity”, “I don’t know how that could look” and having someone, so for me that was you, to go “well of course we can do that, we can just do it like this, and we can link it to this system and then you actually wouldn’t need to worry about it” and just for me my mind hadn’t thought of it in that way yet so to think “oh, wow it can be simple and it doesn’t have to be hard, it doesn’t have to be a struggle” so I think that’s something, and this is obviously it’s something very particular to how you are you, but I think it’s also when you outsource to people, with those different skill sets, they know so much you don’t know and that’s wonderful because if you only work with people who know what you know, you all believe the same things are possible, whereas when you’re working with different people who are doing such different things, they know what can be possible that you haven’t even realised yet and that’s such a game changer. Especially for micro-businesses like ours where we’re doing everything and it’s all based on our capacity and our idea’s, to have other people come in and say “oh that’s a brilliant idea, here’s how we put it into practice, that is such a huge component, I think of being able to feel build and grow a business in a way that you know, we might envision but we can’t really see how it would happen.
Yeh totally, I absolutely agree and I was listening to you and you’re far too self deprecating talking about your weaknesses because actually what you’re talking about is the same thing exactly why people come to you, do you know what I mean so, as a virtual assistant when you start out, you can spend hours looking into GDPR, there’s a whole thing called a ‘data protection policy’ – I mean who knew about that right?! And it brings up lots of worries, and I suppose it’s exactly the same reason why clients come to you because they are safe in the knowledge that you are the expert in that and I always come back to that analogy of ‘You can’t wear all the hats’ and it’s almost like everyone’s got a different hat that they put on the hat tree and if you can get people that you have that click with and you know they are also an expert in their area, when they wear their hats, it just kind of works doesn’t it, it just alleviates a lot of pressure and it takes things out of your head but it also, and that’s what I really want to try and talk about on the Podcast, to encourage other VA’s to really realise that it can help people grow, you shouldn’t expect to be able to do everything and actually by being confident in the things that you can do and doing those brilliantly, that allows you to grow and it allows you to support your clients to your highest potential really and then of course that helps them to grow.
Completely, I think that for me personally that’s something that, because again I came to running a business quite accidentally I hadn’t thought about wearing all the hats, too be honest, I didn’t know until I was doing it, I didn’t know I would need to be the marketing expert, that I would need to be the finance manager, that I would need would need to do all the things, I just hadn’t conceptualised that, I thought I’m really good at doing legal documents, I’ve got the expertise to help people take their businesses online, I thought I can do that, but I hadn’t thought about what the whole business would need, not just what my legal services would need from me so like you say, I think realising that I can hand that bundle of expertise to someone else and say look you are so good at this, what would take you an hour would take me a week so how about I give you that and I think it’s not just handing over the project, but it’s the mental load that comes with knowing an expert who really loves this stuff, the same way I do with contracts, I love getting contracts and having a play and making it work, so people who can do that in my business and that’s something working with you that we have done in terms of systems and you have got me set up on Trello and all these things that in my head it seems so hard but when it’s done I’m like “oh goodness” the mental load of not having to carry all those things in my head, actually I can just pop it down and we work through it and I think that is really underrated, that mental load for a small business owner is massive, it’s really massive and I think we don’t talk enough about how heavy that can be, thinking “we need to wear all the hats’ and ‘be all the things’ and when you have that support system around you of people who know how to do the other things then you can lean on each other, I think that release in the mental mode is huge, I just can’t over emphasise how much that’s really helped me as a person but also really helped my business.
I think a lot of business owners find that bit the hardest though, there’s that kind of mindset of peace where you get to that point where you are so overstretched and you’re working too many hours and you get to that point where you think ‘crikey, this isn’t why I started my business, I need to outsource’ but there’s almost a mindset piece and it’s about trust to allow yourself to a part and give it to somebody else of your baby really, your business that you’ve brought up yourself. Do you have any mindset tips or do you have anything that you could pass onto other business owners that would help them in taking that first step.
Definitely, so for me I think, too be honest I really struggled with that at the beginning because being typically being a lawyer you’re a ‘type A person’ not everyone but generally we tend to be quite and controlling about things and so for me in my mind to be able to consciously and intentionally step away from that way of running a business and that way of operating in my business where I would not only, so there are a few layers of this for me, so I needed to be able to trust that I could make enough money to justify the investment and that was a struggle because up until that point I hadn’t made any major investments in my business, so trusting that I could make enough to support the person who’s working with me, to obviously pay their fee’s, and that was really important to me because I wanted to be able to pay someone when they invoiced me, I didn’t want them to be having to chase me because I had taken on something that I wasn’t able to meet yet so that was an exercise in self trust and betting on my business that I can make this additionally amount each month because I need to, because I need to pay those bills and then very much linked to that is, and I had to really switch my thinking in that it wasn’t and it became, and I feel so strongly now, that when I had to pay the people that I outsource in my business it is not and I don’t think of it as spending, I think of it as investing and I get so much back and that takes my business to different levels, income wise and growth wise that I could not do otherwise so even though it is definitely a financial investment and I’m not at all saying don’t think about that and know that you’re able to support that absolutely that’s really important, but when you get to that point where you believe you can afford it, it’s very much about recognising that outsourcing within your business, you are bringing in expertise which is going to allow you to make more money.
I think it’s brilliant that you said that because I think that’s a conversation that isn’t had enough, do you know what I mean? About the financial peace, about the trust, and acknowledging that with owning a business comes with expenses and growth comes with expenses but it’s when you view them in a positive way as an investment as to what you are gaining and growing and allowing yourself to be able to do, I think that’s vital, I think that’s really important message.
Yeh I think and too be honest it really changes the energy in that relationship as well because if you’re seeing it from a place of oh my gosh I have to pay this person and I’m spending this money and I don’t know how I’m going to make enough for the rest of the month, that is going to influence how you are in that relationship. So if you had a VA, and you weren’t sure if you could really afford that VA and you bring that enery to your interactions, that’s going to cause friction and that’s not going to make for a happy relationship. Whereas when you are at the point, knowing you can afford it and you look at that expenditure as something to embrace and something to welcome because it’s giving you that opportunity to use your time so the VA can use their time in their genius zone doing things for your business, that let you spend your time doing your genius things. You’re just investing other people’s genius zones in you business, if that makes sense?
So you’re putting out the investment but what it puts back into your business financially and otherwise is really impactful, and I think that’s really important for people to think about, not to make that investment until you are ready but make it when you’re ready to really embrace it and not at it as a strain or look at negatively, but step into that and look at that knowing what that’s giving you and knowing the benefit of it, I think that‘s really important.
I absolutely agree and I think when you approach it from that way, you feel the benefits so much more and I know that myself because I now outsource in my own business so I’m kind of going through the process that my clients have always gone through and by knowing the value and the breadth that it kind of allows me to take a deep breath because I can breathe because all these things are being done by brilliant people, it’s such an amazing feeling, and when they invoice me I like a pride, it’s like ‘Yes, I get to pay this person to support me’ and I’m so grateful to have their support because you can really feel the benefit of it. You’ve shared loads of brilliant tips, do you have any other tips that you can share for people who are looking to outsource or who perhaps are at the moment you know where they’re kind of stood on the end of the diving board and they can see where they want their business to go and they’ve just got to make that first step, and you’ve talked brilliantly about the investment side of it, it could be anything at all, any tips at all.
Yeh sure, and I think that you’ll cover this because this is something that we’ve talked about before, but for me within my business before I outsourced, I remember thinking to myself “well what will I outsource when I get to that point when I can take on a VA?” and a lot of people say you know, make a list of all the things you do and you know the things that you can delegate and then do it in that way. I did it a little bit differently in that I made that massive to do list with all things I wanted to do and things I wanted to happen and I highlighted all the things that either I hated or that I knew would take me hours and that I would really resent doing or things that had been on my to do list for perhaps three months and I hadn’t made any progress on. So it wasn’t only recognising the brilliant things that other people can do but it was really recognising these are things I hate! I hate doing these things!
Oh yeh my OBM will tell you, she does that for me!
Yes and I don’t want to do this every month, I know that I need to, my business needs me to do X Y Z every single month but I hate doing it and makes me feel bad and it brings my energy down when I know on that particular day that thing is on my to do list, my whole energy for that day is negative and down and dragging and procrastinating so for me that was something that really helped me, focusing on the things I hate, imagining those no longer being on my to do list, it was again such, when I talked to you and we were having those initial calls and I highlighted those things, and your reaction was so much like “oh yeh of course, that’s something I can do quite easily, and I can take care of this” and for me it was almost like a physical weight lifting where I realised “oh so I don’t have to do the things I hate” you know running a business on my own doesn’t mean I have to do all the things even if they’re awful, and obviously I’m not saying we’re only doing the things that we love passionately, there are obviously things that we need to do though it’s finding that boundary, but for me knowing there were things, anything tech related, or anything that involved as you would know, building organisational systems, that I just love the outcome and I don’t love the doing and just knowing there was someone who did that so fluently, they spoke that language of that tech, of that software, for me that really nudged me into being able to doing it because when I talked to someone who for them it was so effortless, and they were like “yeh that’s fine for me!” for me that really made difference for me to think great, I know I can hand over the things I hate, not to someone who also hates it but to someone who loves that! I think that really helped to bring the joy back into my business which after some time – not that I had stopped loving my business at all, but because there were all these things I felt and these were an investment that I “should be doing” and I was doing them because you had to do them but it was really bogging me down and so when I got to this point where I could hand these things over and do the things that I was better at and that gave me energy in my business and it pushed it forward, so I think really identifying not just what’s not your genius zones but what you hate, and finding brilliant people to do those things that is a secret.
It’s so true, it’s so true! I just love that honesty, because I’ve done it myself like the first thing I’ve outsourced is all of my bookkeeping because it’s just not my bag, and as an OBM if a client wants that service, I find an expert that does that for them, and actually acknowledging the stuff that you hate, is really powerful because it can really bring down your day, you know those things that are always on your list, you never get to them you dread doing them, they take twice as long as anything else, if you’ve got those things that are in your business and you’ve got to do them every month and they are shouting out to you to be outsourced.
I completely agree! I think the relief and also the release of holding those things and knowing they need to be done, not trying to get too woo but there’s an energy there that you know you have to do them and you get tense you get tired and you feel drained and pulled and all those negative things and when you’re bringing that to your working day and especially as Mum’s, and even people who aren’t parents, anyone who is juggling a business with any other life things, life obligations, there’s so little time that you get to be in your business and I don’t want to spend those hours that I’m in my business feeling drained and feeling like I have to do that thing again oh my gosh I hate doing this thing, whereas when you can release that to someone else, you’re focusing on the things that when you get that couple of hours in your business you think yes let’s pump through this let’s do this stuff, because it’s the things you know that are yours and that you’re best at and I think for me that really helped massively and it also helped to release that trust, that last bit of control thing and I thought well actually I’m happy to let that go because I hate that and I’m not holding onto something I love and so scared someone will mess it up but this is something I hate and I’m not good at so, bye!
Ah brilliant, I think that’s such a good tip! I love the honesty and it’s so true, because I’m exactly the same – type A, control thing but it’s you are brilliant at the thing that I dread every month, whoop like how can that be a bad thing?! And then when they do that brilliantly, it then helps build that trusting relationship so by the time you’ll often find if you have a good relationship with your client, by the time you get to three months, they’re asking you to do more because they’ve started to feel the benefit of that stuff. Oh Ingrid thank you, this has been amazing, I know that everyone listening is going to be taking such fab tips from this. Can you please tell us before we go, what’s next for you business and where can people find out more about what you do?
Oh well thank you, so look I’ve really enjoyed chatting to you and I think because of working with you I’m such a huge advocate of outsourcing and I realise and sorry this is a slight tangent but I just want to mention as women I think outsourcing isn’t something that we’re modelled, at least for our generation, I know I can’t speak for everyone’s but my Mum was someone who did all the things and did them really well and I never really until I became a parent, I never really looked beyond that and how much juggling she would have needed to do to keep all those balls in the air and she never let the important ones drop, and so I think for a lot of us we might have been modelled that and what I’m able to look at now and say that is I can look and her and still have all that admiration for her in everything she did because she did it really well, but that’s not necessarily, I don’t want to spend all my time in a juggle and feeling like what am I keeping in the air, what’s about to drop, I don’t like to live with tension it doesn’t feel good so I think having these conversations about outsourcing and how this is a positive for your business, how it’s way to grow, having that community of people around you.
-And accepting help, because that’s what it is really, it’s putting your mark in the sand and saying, do you know what I’m not really great at this, you are, can you help me to support me with this.
Exactly and I think we’re just not modelled doing that so I think having these conversations and you having the Podcast on this, I think it’s so great for women, small business owners, founders and freelancers to start thinking of course I can ask for help and it doesn’t make me any less, it doesn’t make me less capable, or it doesn’t make me less successful so I think that I love that you’re doing this and I’m so happy to chat about this because I think we need to model this more for the people around us who are thinking they have to wear all the hats but also for the next generation so they don’t think oh I don’t have to do all the things all the time myself because I don’t think that’s a weight that anyone of us should have to wear so I just wanted to point that so thank you so much for having me. In terms of what’s next for me, so we’re working on currently launching, excitingly, very exciting, some digital products. So I work with a lot of people who are just starting out and I can completely understand that they’re not ready to dive into bespoke contracts and terms and conditions and documents because firstly they might not know how they want to work yet so investing in a bespoke contract might not feel natural because they don’t know what it’s going to look like but also for people who just want the thing so that they can do the next thing, which is something that I understand so well so what we’re launching is some templates which I’ve all drafted myself so they’re not templates that you download and not sure whose done them or where they’ve come from so they’re all done by me, and what they’re really there for is people who, especially for people who are just about to launch a website and they just need to have the things so they can launch and they can get it out into the world and we’re going to have these templates ready to go so people can just jump on, buy them, input their personal details and personalise it for their business and get their awesome products or service or business out into the world, so super excited to get the templates sharpened, the website live and yeh help people in that way which will be fab.
Awesome and what I particularly love about these templates, ‘cos guys I have seen them, they are good, I purchased some generic agreements when I started my business and as I went through and inputted my personal details, it was like reading something, like the most archaic English language, and I taught English for ten years so I thought I was pretty au faite with archaic English language but, and I said this to you before, it was like ‘England and Wales, England and Wales…’ and I was just so baffled and I was thinking oh my goodness so I have got to now email this to a prospective client you know and feel mega confident about it like this is how I’m setting up my business and it was just you know a bit stressful, if I’m honest, and what I love about your templates and if you are new VA listening or if you’re thinking of setting up your VA business, I promise you that these templates are written in ‘normal’ English, maybe not mine and Ingrid’s English after a few coffee’s but ‘legal English’ there you go, there’s a new term I just made up, but you will feel confident setting yourself up with them, it’s so easy, there’s highlighted sections where you input your personal data and then that’s what you send out to your client and I know in my mentoring when we talk a lot about what happens after the discovery call, what happens when a new client says yes I would love to work with you, that onboarding step is really important because it creates an impression for you client, that first impression on how you work with them, and the thing about Ingrid’s templates are, they are absolutely customisable to your brand, but they are so professional, yet understandable, they’re not in this crazy kind of archaic English that you would never be able to refer to let’s face it ultimately a legal agreement is there if at some point, and you never know how a relationship is going to go, you might need to refer to it, and you need to feel confident that clause 4.2 or whatever it is, tells you what your notice would be with a client and this stuff is so important yet it’s the scary, scary heebie geebie stuff that a lot of people feel totally understandably when they start out. So if this is something that you are interested in, if you’re listening and thinking “Yes Natalia, hit me up, I need these” the link is in the show notes and you can find Ingrid.
I am on, so I’m on Instagram more so than anywhere else at the moment, so that www.instagram.com/decanddash_ingrid so if you pop in Dec and Dash, you’ll find me and I’m also on Facebook with the same Dec and Dash Legal Consulting so yeh they’re the best places at the moment to find me and definitely hit me up if you have any questions or coming out of listening to this if you just want to run some things by me, more than happy to have a chat and talk to you about where you’re at
Well thank you and I just wanted to add listening to you, just one final thing, similiarly if you’re listening to this and you’re in an OBM position like I am and you’ve had your business for a few years and you’re kind of changing your business and you feel like that original freelancer agreement doesn’t work for you, do contact Ingrid to ask about how bespoke agreement because she’s helped me to create different ones for my mentoring clients, for my retainer clients for my project clients so if you’re at that point slightly further on, hit her up as well she knows all the non-archaic English.
All the normal English things! No question is a stupid question and I know this is something that you and I talked about so that you’re coming to this wherever you’re at is ok and any questions you have are welcome so Natalia and I are both happy to chat.
Always, right, thank you so much, it’s been a joy